Brazilian sociologist says Rio may have Pacifying Police Units, but lacks a security policy

The sociologist and former head of the Prison System Julita Lemgruber, who is launching the book "A Dona das Chaves - Uma mulher no comando das prisões do Rio" (Owner of the Keys - A woman in the command of Rio's prisons), says that "legislating under panic conditions" is not the right thing to do in times of crisis ("it's not the length of the prison sentence that reduces criminality, but the certainty of punishment") and says that although Rio has the UPP (Pacifying Police Unit) policy, it has no security policy ("Rio's police solves only 8% of homicides, compared to 60% in São Paulo city").

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Lemgruber says that "Brazil keeps many people in prison and does it wrong" ("half of prison inmates are small dealers and petty thieves. Half a million prison inmates is an investment in our own insecurity").

Lemgruber, who has also authored "Cemitério dos Vivos" (Cemetery of the Living), a study of the prison system, and "Quem Vigia os Vigias" (Who guards the guards), about external control of the police, wrote her new book with co-author Anabela Paiva, a journalist. The result of their work is a collection of stories that are serious, tense and very human, but also colorful, about the time during which the sociologist was the head of Rio's prison system, from 1991 to 1994.

In the book, Lemgruber tells readers how the prison guards summed up for her the secret of keeping a prison in peace: "Ball, dope and ass" (football, marijuana and sex). She points out gravely society's lack of interest in what goes on inside the prison walls: "Many people react with indifference or even with satisfaction to news of violence against people who have been accused of crimes. (...) Most Brazilians would like to lock criminals up and throw the keys away", she writes.

"There is no death penalty in Brazil. These men and women inmates will leave prison one day. If we treat them without humanity, with cruelty, without respect for the families, depriving these people of the possibility of contact with the outside world, we'll be creating monsters", she says.

Mother of the actor Rodrigo Candelot, who plays the part of a corrupt politician in "Elite Squad 2", Julita Lemgruber thinks that a public security policy requires more than troops. "It's not just a question of putting police on the streets. Their actions need to be planned; a strategy needs to be implemented, and the actions need to be monitored. It's an interlocking work. You can only plan when you are very well acquainted with facts on the ground."

FOLHA - The state traces the conflicts taking place in Rio this week to orders given by drug traffic leaders who are in prison. How can this be dealt with? In your book, you mention an English minister as having once said that prisons are "an expensive way of producing worse persons".

JULITA LEMGRUBER - Brazil has half a million people in prison. It's the fourth largest prison population in the world. Half a dozen of these inmates are involved in giving orders, have some responsibility for what goes on in the city. Because of these half a dozen inmates, tomorrow we will see some congressman proposing restrictive legislative measures. (Secretary José Mariano) Beltrame said the prison legislation needs to be reviewed. This will harm thousands of people who are doing the best to do their time with good behavior, so as to get legal benefits. In the end, they're going to want to cut the benefits. What makes me furious in times like these is that people don't realize one thing: Brazil doesn't have a death penalty. These men and women who're in prison now will get out some day. If we treat these people without humanity, with cruelty, without respecting the families, depriving these people of the possibility of contact with the outside world, we'll be creating monsters.

Criminalists talk about panic legislating. Every time a shocking crime takes place, some congressman comes forward to propose even harsher laws. It is well known in the whole world that criminality is not reduced with legislation. The best example of this is our Draconian drug legislation. What's the use? I am in favor of legalizing the use and distribution of all drugs. In Talavera Bruce prison alone, 60% of the women inmates are doing time for drug trafficking. What power do these women have over the drug trade in Rio? Many of them are just poor victims who were mules, who were paid 2,000 reais to take drugs to Europe or bring drugs here from other Latin-American countries. Every now and again the police manage to arrest some leader of the drug trade, but 99% of the arrests are of people who have no power at all in the structure of the business. And we are filling our prisons with this kind of people. Do they want to make the laws even harsher?

FOLHA - The inmates send orders to drug dealers through lawyers and family members who visit them. What can be done about this?

Research shows that the more contact inmates have with their families, the better are their chances of not going back to crime once they get out. Stimulating inmates' contact with their families is essential. Our laws ensure inmates' right to see their lawyers. Unless their conversations with their lawyers were monitored, and OAB (the Brazilian Lawyers' Association) would rebel against this, inmates will still be able to send messages via their lawyers. I'm not saying that all lawyers are in cahoots with criminals. I write in my book that there was a time when lawyers would follow a long route from one prison to another. We charted their movements and showed clearly that they were acting as carrier pigeons. I went to OAB with a list of names. OAB did nothing, saying that it is a lawyer's right to visit his clients. You can stop some of this kind of thing. Even in maximum security prisons, convicted felons have the right to a lawyer's assistance. It's in the Constitution. The most you can do is put a glass wall separating them from their lawyers. And how can you stop them receiving family members' visits? There is one thing that needs to function better: our police departments intelligence areas function very badly. They are always trying to recover lost ground; they can never foresee incidents. It's not so difficult working with the intelligence area in the prison system. There's always some inmate willing to sell information in exchange for some kind of favor. In a time of crisis, you can set up a really well coordinated system of intelligence between police and prisons.

FOLHA - What is it that you describe as "panic legislation"?

Panic legislation doesn't solve anything. In 1992, for instance, the prison term for kidnapping was increased. Over the following years there were more kidnappings than ever in Rio de Janeiro. In the USA, the states that have the death penalty don't have less crime that the others. It's not the length of the prison sentence that reduces criminality, but the certainty of punishment. Here in Rio, only 8% of homicides are solved.

FOLHA - Your positions are commonly mistaken for protecting criminals.

The field of human rights in Brazil is still suffering as a result of a badly guided discussion that took place right after the dictatorship came to an end. Brizola, in Rio de Janeiro, and Montoro, in São Paulo, began a discussion of human rights that was badly conducted. In 1983 we went to the prison system thinking that we'd be able to turn it upside down. It is an institution that has deeply rooted rules, that cannot be changed from one day to another. Prison agents said that defending human rights would be like crossing their arms and doing nothing.

Human rights are for everyone, or else no one will have human rights. The issue was not properly worked on. We ended up with the mistaken idea that human rights benefit criminals. The idea that remained was that people who defend human rights defend leniency, prisons where anything goes, a certain laissez-faire in public security.

FOLHA - Fighting crime inside prisons seems strange, doesn't it?

In Rio and in São Paulo there is a strong relation between what takes place inside prisons and what takes place on the outside. Since the young criminal leaders on the outside are usually lacking in experience and many crime leaders in prison are highly respected, of course there's a relation between what happens on the inside and on the outside. The same thing does not happen in Minas Gerais state, for instance. But we can't lay down general rules in function of moments such as the present one. Measures that would harm the larger part of the prison population have nothing to do with his. When Beltrame says that the problems of Rio de Janeiro are decades old, he's right.

FOLHA - What are the roots of the problem?

There was a lack of continuity in public security policy. Differently from São Paulo, where a lot was invested in technology. Sixty per cent of the homicides in São Paulo city are being solved. São Paulo is technically more advanced than Rio, and this is the result of the public security policy involving investments in training, in technology for homicide police. São Paulo has 600 people working in its homicide division. The homicide division of Rio was created a short time ago (and has 250 men, while Rio has 30% more homicides per month than São Paulo).

FOLHA - Does Brazil have too many prison inmates?

Brazil keeps too many people in prison and does it wrong. Less than 10% of homicides are solved. What kind of criminal is being arrested today? Crack cocaine consumers who steal cheap objects, for instance. Our prisons are full to the brim of boys involved in drug dealing and petty crime. Loads of people who could be punished with something that is not a prison term, while an enormous number of murderers go free. Half a million prison inmates is an investment in our own insecurity. Prison doesn't solve problems. The notion that punishing means putting people in prison needs to change.

FOLHA - What is your view on the present security policy in Rio?

The first discussion is about what is a security policy. In Rio there is a UPP (Pacifying Police Units) policy, but no security policy. You never know what Rio's security policy is for areas where there are no UPPs. They have managed to articulate the UPP strategies very well. But so what? Thirteen communities have UPPs. What is security policy for the rest of the state? There is a lack of security policy, and not only in Rio. We need a more sophisticated discussion and planning that might bring to light something that could be called a security policy. It's not just a question of putting police officers on the street. Their actions need to be planned, a strategy needs to be implemented, and the actions need to be monitored. It's an interlocking work. You can only plan when you are very well acquainted with facts on the ground.

Criminality wasn't reduced in Ne York because of the zero tolerance policy. It was sophisticated police work, involving planning. They know what goes on in the city the whole time, in real time. There are the so-called hot spots. So as to plan, you need to be very well acquainted with the dynamics of criminality, you need to know what the police will do, how to coordinate the Civil Police and the Military Police. The level of corruption here is very serious. Rio de Janeiro has a problem that goes back to the golden days of the Jogo do Bicho (illegal lottery), when corruption was rampant in the police force. The police officers of that time got used to earning something extra. After the Jogo do Bicho came drug traffic.

FOLHA - How do you evaluate Beltrame's administration?

It has many merits. To begin with, because of it's total integrity. This is a great plus in the context of the last few years in Rio. I've had discussions with Beltrame and we didn't see eye to eye at all. I may disagree with him, but I cannot question his integrity. During the first two years of the Cabral government, police violence reached unbearable levels, with over a thousand deaths per year. They realized that something had to be done. They woke up to the fact that violence cannot be fought with violence. There are moments, such as the one we're going through now, in which police officers just have to go the streets. But they need to do it very carefully. The danger is of falling into a spiral of escalating violence that won't solve anything.

Translation from the Portuguese by CLARA ALLAIN